Curse

fatboyslimerr · May 23, 2006, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Both mark of subversion (MoS) and shame are great shutdown skills due to their guarenteed interrupt plus added energy/health steal. I thought then, why not make a build using both of them as well as adding spamability using mantra of recovery (MoR) to make a good anti monk build. If both are covered with something else (life siphon perhaps) then it can't be removed by that targets team mates. I dunno how well this would work, but certainly its worth a try, more so in HA I reckon due to its shorter duration and the inability to cast spells over a short period of time being more crucial. Might work in GvG though. Possibly even in PvE against elemental/necro/healer casters if they can't ever get their spells off.
Here's an idea of a build then.
Me/N 12 domination (11+1)
10-12 blood
9 inspiration (8+1)
Rest in FC for MoR.

1. Diversion
2. Shame
3. Mark of Subversion
4. Mantra of Recovery {E}
5. Power Leak -- should always have one interrupt + semi energy denial.
6. Drain Enchantment/Energy Tap -- basically energy mangement
7. Strip Enchantment -- if mass enchant remove is the order of the day or more energy mangement Energy Tap or Power Drain
8. Res Sig

In all of this don't forget MoR increasing recharges of everything. I know this could turn into semi interrupter build but who's saying thats neccessarily a bad thing. Slightly worried about attributes being too spread and possible energy concerns but I've left it slightly optional.

Any comments or improvements or new factions skills which would work well here ???

Hermessar · May 23, 2006, 03:14 PM // 15:14

A good gvg Team will have sufficient hex removal for this, I'm afraid.
Cover hexes are no luxery aswell. In that case I wouldn't use Life Siphon, but Parasetic Bond.

fatboyslimerr · May 23, 2006, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Tis true but there is a certain amount of skill required to using shame/MoS at the right time. With quite a lot of fast casting, both of these spells should cast within 1 second. If you manage to take a large amount of health of a target monk's team mate and you know he/she will have to heal that person, a quick shame or MoS and hopefully they won't even see it. It will hopefully mean that team mate will also die

Perhaps, if your bothered about things like Expel Hexes, in slot 7, as well as siphon, you could take parasitic bond or another cover hex but these skills (shame and MoS) should never be really seen by your target, so a chance to remove it should be limited even if they are prepared for it.

Themis · May 23, 2006, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Nice try !
But, I think that 61 to 97 (10 to 12) skill points are too much of a waste for a single skill. Use Signet of Humility / Complicate (or Overload if you need damage) and put these points somowhere else...

I don't think you need a cover hex for Shame, really.

fatboyslimerr · May 23, 2006, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Whoever said I actually need to steal a lot of health with MoS. I'll have only a much blood as I need to get a decent duration on it. I agree you don't need to cover it but Hermessar disagrees with us.

Shame and MoS should not be on your target for long enough for it to be removed. As in you should cast it and they should instantly try to cast through it and so get interrupted.

I'll work it out later what the minimum amount of blood magic I can take for MoS to have a decent duration.

Pick Me · May 23, 2006, 06:15 PM // 18:15

In PvP, its sounds very good. But if there is more than 1 monk, I then at least 1 monk is virtually out.

In PvE, I wonder. Vs Elementalists, I doesn't sound very useful. Power Drain, Strip Enchantment are good against them. But otherwise, they don't cast on allies. Necromancers only cast Poison Nova on the dying. So, it would be useful, but I think you can shut them down in better ways. Vs Monks, yes, very good. But the computer AI doesn't care about your spells. It just casts, over and over again. Lets face it, Orison of Healing, Word of Healing, smite hex, and remove hex can be cast faster than your recharge. So, they can cast more spells to remove your hexes faster than you can cast them.

Players may use less costly spells to remove your hexes fast. To my understanding in PvP and GvG, monks carry Holy Veil. Your hexes on them will take twice as long to cast, and are removed instantly by them. That and the fact that once a monk sees what you are upto, you are a squishy target to be removed ASAP. Life Siphon won't help you.

Good news, you take pressure off the killing of your own monks.

I wish I could offer you any improvements to your build, but right now I can't really. Maybe Archane Echo for a double cast of either Shame or Mark of Diversion. I don't know anything about Factions skills for the mesmer or necro that can help.

I noticed that your build doesn't have life siphon, even though you mentioned it. In that case, as a cover hex, use Parastic Bond.

Parastic Bond is a fast casting, fast recharging (extremely weak life drainning spell) that gives the caster health when it ends or is removed.

I hope I don't come out as a critical person, because I don't mean to bash your build. Its a nice build and an interesting idea. However, I don't think its a very applicable for PvE. Definitely for PvP though.

Just my thoughts.

ender6 · May 23, 2006, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatboyslimerr

Whoever said I actually need to steal a lot of health with MoS. I'll have only a much blood as I need to get a decent duration on it. I agree you don't need to cover it but Hermessar disagrees with us.

Shame and MoS should not be on your target for long enough for it to be removed. As in you should cast it and they should instantly try to cast through it and so get interrupted.

I'll work it out later what the minimum amount of blood magic I can take for MoS to have a decent duration.

And who are you playing against that they will attempt to cast throught it? That might work in PvE but most certainly not against a good caster in PvP. And like many who have come before me I must say: You should plan your build for good players not bad ones. Oh and btw, keeping hexes on a target is damn tough in GvG especially with the new elite expel hexes, but if you were going to go with a cover, go with a quick cover like PB--at least pretend to give yourself a chance to cover the hex.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 23, 2006, 06:28 PM // 18:28

CoP is still here to kill us all (readily awaits the day when it becomes a spell with a 1/2 second cast...)
Attributes are split too thin imo

fatboyslimerr · May 23, 2006, 08:32 PM // 20:32

I stick by my earlier statement. Yes shame and MoS are easy to remove but you should only cast them when they will be triggered. For example, say your team has 2 warriors, that for the moment can't be blinded or whatever, and they are doing pretty fly damage on a monk, but they are unlikely to kill that monk without help. Then say I cast shame or MoS on that monk, being so super fly and quick, I can try to cast the other on enemies' second monk. They will either not notice shame/MoS because they are about to die or will sacrifice casting through it to become operational again or will not do anything so not to trigger it. All are good outcomes

If you just ran within range of a monk and spam MoS and shame, it will be quickly removed and so totally useless. You need to think about when you will use it, and even if they don't cast through it, it still means like 6-9 seconds when that foe can't cast without something bad happening.

If your still that bothered about it being removed carry a hex spammer in your team also and coordinate a ton of hexes to come on after shame/MoS. This really can't be done with TS or ventrillo though.

As for CoP, how can they use CoP if they aren't enchanted (hmmmm shatter storm + shadow shroud) obviously we are talking about GvG now when you will be supported by other people with such skills. Even so my original build has an optional 2 enchantment removers.

Btw I was of course planning for top PvP and not really PvE but this is a PvE forum I just wanted to keep it a more open post.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 23, 2006, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Shatterstorm is nice; but Divine Boon has a casting time of 1/4
Just felt like pointing that out =/
I would like to nominate Shatter Enchantment and/or feedback for enchantment removal. Personally I would go with...well both are strong choices. Shatter removes the one total that mattters; health points. However Feedback prevents recasting of divineboon by draining energy points; which are likely to be of shortage in this situation. Decisions decisions.

CoP+Divine Boon combo will net the caster 51+85 healthpoints; or 136 health for 10 energy, and the removal of your hex, and whatever conditions the warriors have placed on him.

The main problem is you will run out of ammo before they will; if you shame+mark of subversion both monks; then it has little effect. However if you shame+mark the same monk twice the other monk is still able to heal the one the warriors are beating up.

Therefore; energy denial of said monk under times he is being rapidly assulted via energy burn or like skills, or temporary disablence of key/all skills from a skill such as blackout (or diversion for you fanboys out there) is likely the better option.

Nice work though; just more ammo for my "CoP needs to be a spell!" movement (damn spell...err skill foiling all my strategies)
-edit-
As Hella Good said other hexes would be good. I would like to add shadow of fear; simply because it owns so much. I just simply don't think one skill is worth another post.

Hella Good · May 24, 2006, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Just make sure (much like Migraine/inter) to include it in a hex heavy build. A Hex spammer (N/Me Siphon/Faint/etc.) on your team will help you out a ton. When going hex heavy Suffering and PB are wonderful hex remover disablers. I won't even get into how efficient PB is as a trick hex, cause I'm working on limiting my rambling and keeping it short.

fatboyslimerr · May 24, 2006, 08:24 AM // 08:24

lol, thank you kindly for your input. I did actually steal your hex spammer build (from necro forum) Hella but he's a mesmers instead because he don't need that much curses to still be effective. Suffering + Shadow of Fear would work wonderfully, especially with fast casting

I would say instead of shatterstorm, shadow shroud then coordinate with your chums a nice enchantment removal followed by a nice shadow shroud later followed by a jolly well done chaps.

I think this shame + MoS build is good but I would only use it for HA or TA, because imo MoR/p.leak is king of GvG muhahahaha.

One day when we are all robots, we'll be able to interrupt 1.4 second spells then boon won't be a problem. I would say for the moment, migrane (+ a heap of cover hexes) is the best anti boon build if CoP is really annoying you. Just give them a wooping great migrane. There is also a nice new ranger elite (broad head arrow) which causes daze without the need to interrupt.. I think.. gwonline.net skill descriptions aren't brilliant. Daze would have a similar affect to migrane. (be sure to cover with apply poison though).

Moving a bit off topic ??, mehh oh well.

Cirian · May 24, 2006, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

In PvE, I wonder. Vs Elementalists, I doesn't sound very useful. Power Drain, Strip Enchantment are good against them. But otherwise, they don't cast on allies. Necromancers only cast Poison Nova on the dying.

I can help out here

Elementalists can use Windborne Speed and Conjures on others if I remember rightly, and Necromancers can use things like Dark Fury, Death Nova, Tainted Flesh {E} and Dark Aura on others. Against Mesmers, I think you can counter Sympathethic / Ancestral Visage.

Mark of Subversion triggers even if the target is themselves against these types of spell, so you could use it (I think!) against an E/Mo casting Windborne Speed on themselves for example - should you want to do that for some reason!

Pick Me · May 24, 2006, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

I can help out here

Elementalists can use Windborne Speed and Conjures on others if I remember rightly, and Necromancers can use things like Dark Fury, Death Nova, Tainted Flesh {E} and Dark Aura on others. Against Mesmers, I think you can counter Sympathethic / Ancestral Visage.

Mark of Subversion triggers even if the target is themselves against these types of spell, so you could use it (I think!) against an E/Mo casting Windborne Speed on themselves for example - should you want to do that for some reason!

I ment vs Elementalists and Necros in PvE. As I haven't ventured too far in Factions, but I know in Tyria, Monsters don't seem to cast Windborn Speed, or Dark Fury. Tainted Flesh, I forgot about that one, but I think only the boss carries it. Vs Monks, yes, sweet stuff though. Stops SoJ (not signet), healing hands, etc.

It affects any spell targetting an ally, including self.

In PvE, the AI doesn't concern itself with the spells that you cast on it. Hex Breaker will stop you cold. Spellbreaker will get caught.

Smite Hex will stop it I think (you cast it on 1 monster, the other will remove it) - stupid Griffons. So basically, the computer's AI will continue to cast as long as it can, regardless if you put a hex on it or not.

LightningHell · May 24, 2006, 03:54 PM // 15:54

AI will cast as long as the cast doesn't kill it. I think.

Cirian · May 25, 2006, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

Tainted Flesh, I forgot about that one, but I think only the boss carries it.

Don't forget Kirins, they're quite common in the plains and echovald forest